The multi-use paths are a fundamental part of Peachtree City; however, they are not without their faults.
I have spent a significant amount of time on paths and noticed some fairly major flaws in their design. The biggest flaw is the width of the paths. Most paths in PTC are only 10 feet wide. This is fine for pedestrians and cyclists who feel comfortable with about 5 feet of operating width, but golf carts are 4 feet wide and need 7 feet of operating space for most people to feel comfortable.
It will be difficult to widen the paths in some areas due to lack of space, but I believe it’s worth it to make the path network more comfortable for all users.
There are other issues: one common issue is sight lines. There are a number of blind corners that increase the chance of collisions because golf carts and bikes travel quickly and short sightlines give them little time to react if there is a fallen branch or golf cart on the path.
Another issue is corner radius. Golf carts can go 20 mph and bike average 15 mph on flat ground and can reach 25 mph in hilly areas. Despite this, there are a number of tight corners which leads to people cutting the corner in an attempt to maintain their speed, which again is a safety hazard as people are on the wrong side of the path.
Either PTC needs to work to increase the radius of these turns or implement a speed limit for golf carts and cyclists on the paths.
Yet another flaw in the multi-use path network is the scarcity of signage. There are a few signposts but they are not common, making it easy for people unfamiliar with PTC to get lost. Additionally, it makes giving directions and trying to convey locations on the paths difficult.
Another issue is trees, there are many trees that are growing right next to the path. Not only do the trees pose a crash danger as there is no room for recovery if someone loses control, but their roots damage the base layer of the paths creating bumps. The bumps increase wear on golf carts and in general decrease the comfort level of all path users.
I would like to see PTC Council update the city ordinance on the design standards (Section 804) for the multi-use paths.
Fayette County recently published design guidelines for multi-use paths, but I would like to see them officially implemented so that we can hold the city accountable if new paths don t meet those standards. I would also like to see minimum sightlines and curve radii added to the design standards.
Once codified in the city ordinance, PTC could start a long-term program to replace and improve paths as they need replacing.
Another thing that needs changing in the ordinance is the law that requires golf carts to stop and yield to cars at crossings. The reason for this is that Georgia state law requires cars to stop for pedestrians and cyclists in crossings, which creates a confusing mess at crossings especially at intersections.
By changing it so that cars have to yield to golf carts it makes it easier for drivers as they just have to notice someone is about to cross and don’t have to determine if it’s a golf cart or a pedestrian.
This is not to say that golf carts should be able to fly through crossings without looking. If a car cannot stop before the crossing, the golf cart has to wait for the car to pass. It is common sense, runners don’t cross without checking and being sure that the cars are stopping; same goes for golf carts.
To compliment this change, PTC should install raised crossings in some places like the Holly Grove Road Crossing. Raised crossings are basically large speed bumps with a flat top at curb height so path users have a smooth crossing and cars know there is a speed bump and slow down, reducing the chance of collisions.
All of these improvements would not be free and the money would have to come from somewhere. I propose getting it from the police budget.
There are 60 full time PTC police officers. We could lay off 5 officers whose salaries alone cost the city roughly $325,000 a year. This is not including benefits and cost of purchasing equipment for them. PTC would be just as safe with 55 officers as with 60, because police to not prevent crime they catch criminals after they commit crimes.
PTC is a unique place and I would like to make it better by making the multi-use paths better.
Henry Vorosmarti
Peachtree City, Ga.
Everything you need to know about this guy is right here: “I would like to see them officially implemented so that we can hold the city accountable.”
This guy needs a job, he is obviously bored. Now on cutting the police budget during a time we need them the most well that is just foolishness. No cart path is more important than our safety that law enforcement provides our communities. Henry obviously does not like law enforcement and does not see their value.
Hi Henry,
You may have some good points and observations….but reducing the police budget is not an option with me.
I need the police to protect me from bad cart drivers, underage drivers, un governed carts that go too fast.
Maybe you should op out from having access to 911 and a cop coming to your house when you need him or her….the modest savings for the city could be applied to do some of your propose projects…better yet…petition PTC citizens who are willing to have less police protection to ask City Hall about an “opt out” and “hold Harmless” document for all of those who are willing reduce the police budget for cart path improvements….maybe if you get in trouble you can call a Democrat or a young person with Blue hair and tattoos on speed dial to CYA.
That sounds great, most of the time calling the cops just makes things worse.
Like I said……….
Henry, Henry, Henry, you are really looking too far into this with blinders on, wanting to see only one outcome.
To attempt to classify golf carts the same as pedestrians is not a very good idea and would also require rewriting both state law and city code.
It’s plain and simple as laid out in The State of Georgia O.C.G.A. which pretty much says ANYTHING that is powered is NOT a pedestrian, period. Canoes, kayaks, bicycles GOLF CARTS are all forms of vehicles, period. As a matter of fact O.C.G.A. 40-6-391 will show that you can get a charge of DUI on all of the above mentioned.
And if a person can not tell the difference of something with wheels and something with tennis shoes, well there is the problem.
I believe in the K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) system, wheels stop at all intersections and feet have the right of way at intersections not controlled by traffic control devices ( and common sense to be used by all).
I do hate to say that it seems that about every 4 to 5 years there is a fatality involving a golf cart. A large portion (if not all) of the incidents include young golf cart operators who are doing things that golf carts were not designed to do.
And as far as your statement on the population of “I have looked at zoning maps”, I would say “In my years of both living here and working in and for he city”, I strongly disagree. All I can say is, just ride around!
How many apartment complexes do you have, how many nursing homes, how many condo complexes how many senior or assisted living units are in the city compared to other cities near by? By my count, it is much more than most people would ever guess. Then take how many of the 35,000 people who live in these units, once again more then most people would ever guess. Duplexes, once again, more then you would ever guess.
While many of these units are spread out throughout the city, there are more then one that are in high traffic areas, both car and golf cart.
People moved to Peachtree City to get AWAY from Atlanta, get AWAY from places were there is high population density, get away from were laws are needed to tell people what the “Right Thing” to do is.
At that is what Peachtree City was………………
And by the way, in reading some of your posts I get the idea that you are either a civil engineer or lawyer?
I don’t want to make carts be treated as pedestrians because they are not, however making act more like pedestrians. You’re exactly right with Keep It Simple Stupid, whenever a car sees someone on the side of the road waiting to cross they know they have to stop and let them cross; be it a pedestrian as required by state law, or a cart as required my proposed changed. How can we reduce the number of people that die and are injured while driving carts? I propose that we try to make our roads structurally safer, in the words of Douglas Adams “a common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools”. We have to take into account that young of people will be foolish no matter what. The idea is that while it is impossible to remove all risk, we can reduce the risk of death to near zero and significantly reduce risk of injury. This is know as Vision Zero and it is possible, Helsinki and Oslo have done it and they’re much bigger than PTC. I see no reason why we can’t reduce deaths to 0. To do this we need to move people from cars to carts, which are inherently safer because they can only go 20 mph and are much lighter than cars. As a side benefit, more people takings carts makes PTC a better place to live, cars are sealed boxes that isolate you from the world where as carts allow you to interact with your neighbors and random people you meet along the way. Road rage doesn’t happen in carts. While I’m not a Civil Engineer, I am a Mechanical Engineer with a brother who is a Civil Engineer, and I’m just interested in urban planning.
You may find most of your resistance here comes from suburbanites, not urbanites. PTC is not an urban environment. If your goal is urban planning, this isn’t the place for your experimental modeling.
Urban planning is the name of the field coming from the latin for city urbanus. No matter the size or density of a city or town it still is a good idea to have a plan for what it’ll look like in the future and the process of coming up with that plan is called urban planning. I’m sure that PTC has an urban planner on it’s payroll, they might not have that job title but for a city our size I would be surprised if there wasn’t one. This stuff isn’t experimental, Oslo and Helsinki have it figured out. Obviously we can’t copy exactly what they did because PTC is quite different from Oslo, but we can look at what they did and adapt it to work in PTC.
Try using these formulas where Population = P, Block = B, Urban = U, Suburban = S, Rural = R. U>P(0) and U>S and U>R and U>= P(1000)/B, S>P(0) and SR and S=P(0) and R<U and R<S and R<P(1000). I think the formulas are consistent with the U.S. Bureau of Land Management definitions for Urban, Suburban, and Rural, as well as adopted by other U.S. Government activities.
You are making some very big assumptions. One of which is thinking PTC (even remotely) compares to Oslo and/or Helsinki.
It’s still urban planning if it’s in a rural area, there isn’t a suburban planning or rural planning field. They all fall under the general field of urban planning. Look up the garden city movement, it’s an urban planning movement that focused on green space and villages much like PTC. There’s a lot of things similar; people drive cars, people commute to work, people run errands, etc. There certainly are differences, climate and terrain are big ones. That doesn’t stop us from looking at their designs and why they work, then applying that logic to PTC.
I see your point, you can call mixing apples and oranges a fruit salad.
Congrats Henry. You have taken a wild idea that was part parody and given it a 3-week run in The Citizen by having almost constant commenting by many people. But enough already.
You are correct about urban planning, the terminology and uses although most cities, towns and developers would use the term “long-range planning” and Peachtree City was very good at that for 50+ years. I doubt anyone on city staff has this in their job description, but they should. That last survey was a step in the right direction even though it was mostly cookie-cutter solutions instead of creative work product from active professional planners.
Hey Henry,
“Another thing that needs changing in the ordinance is the law that requires golf carts to stop and yield to cars at crossings. The reason for this is that Georgia state law requires cars to stop for pedestrians and cyclists in crossings, which creates a confusing mess at crossings especially at intersections.”
There’s nothing confusing; Georgia vehicle code requires all vehicles – which includes bicycles and carts – to obey traffic control signage. The problem is these multi-use paths combine both pedestrian and vehicle traffic on the same path but the laws which govern each mode are different.
PTC cannot simply change the rules for motor vehicles as it could conflict with the state and state has to ensure any changes to its code is in step with the uniform vehicle code. One has to remember there’re motor vehicle drivers which use PTC roads who might not live in PTC or the state.
BTW, Georgia vehicle code does not require motor vehicles to stop for a cyclist at crosswalk/intersections unless the cyclist has dismounted and is walking in the crosswalk. At this point, the cyclist is now a pedestrian.
So why don’t we make it so that the codes for golf carts match those as pedestrians, and I couldn’t find anything for cyclists in crosswalks, but we could put up signs that say “Watch for Traffic” or something along those lines. My whole point is that people who don’t live in PTC are used to stopping for pedestrians because it’s the state law and most states have similar laws, and are expecting to have to stop for carts because that would be the reasonable thing to do. Can you point me in the direction of the cyclist in a crossing code?
(a) The driver of a vehicle shall stop and remain stopped to allow a pedestrian to cross the roadway within a crosswalk when the pedestrian is upon the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling, or when the pedestrian is approaching and is within one lane of the half of the roadway on which the vehicle is traveling or onto which it is turning. For the purposes of this subsection, “half of the roadway” means all traffic lanes carrying traffic in one direction of travel.
In other words, it’s illegal for drivers to squeeze by, drive around or cut off a pedestrian in a crosswalk, even if there’s room. Forget yield. Remember STOP.
(b) No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impractical for the driver to yield.
(c) Subsection (a) of this Code section shall not apply under the conditions stated in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-6-92.
(d) Whenever any vehicle is stopped at a marked crosswalk or at any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway, the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear shall not overtake and pass such stopped vehicle.
Henry,
“So why don’t we make it so that the codes for golf carts match those as pedestrians,..”
Because by definition “carts” are motor vehicles not pedestrians. Again some consideration has to be given to the uniform vehicle code for all 50 states. You can’t change this just to suit PTC.
“..and I couldn’t find anything for cyclists in crosswalks.
“Can you point me in the direction of the cyclist in a crossing code?”
As I noted previously, cyclists are not pedestrians while riding a bicycle. Given this, there’s no state vehicle code concerning the operation of a bicycle on a multi-use path/crosswalk. Assuming there’s a stop sign at the crosswalk then the cyclist is obligated to stop and proceed only when it’s safe to do so.
Try this exercise, PTC code 78-12 states bicycles cannot operate on the road way if a “Bicycle Path” is available. So search PTC code and find the definition of a “Bicycle Path”.
I like bicycle paths. They are relatively easy to add to the right-of ways. They will also provide cyclists alternative routing to multipurpose paths. A cycling club might do the community a great service by spearheading bicycling path proliferation.
The cycling club could provide even a better function by requiring its members to actually stop or at least slow down when encountering a stop sign when riding a bicycle on the roadways. I have seen several cyclists (or maybe its the same guy who has several outfits) zooming down Peachtree Parkway and past the McIntosh Trail stop sign with no slowing much less stopping.
I’m also bewildered by why he has to use the road when we have 100 miles of pathways that go to all the same places as the road. Is it that he has to go at high speed because he’s in training or what?
That’s a reasonable explanation, it’s generally a bad idea to train on shared use paths as people training are focusing on their workout and less on where they’re going, it’s hard to predict and react to where pedestrians are going when you’re tired, cyclists can exceed 20 mph when they’re doing interval training and the roads are generally smoother making for a more comfortable ride especially on racing bikes.
While it is true that golf carts are motor vehicles, they are a special class of motor vehicle. We have currently have a law in the PTC ordinance stating that carts must yield the right of way to all cars, so I don’t see why we can’t have the inverse of that law. We already treat carts more like pedestrians than cars, they can’t go on major roads, have to use the paths if available, etc. I don’t see the issue with making the carts just a bit more like pedestrians. You said that we have to follow the uniform vehicle codes, but as far as I’m aware there are no national standards for carts as the handful of other towns that have cart paths have different laws regarding carts.
There are multiple flaws in your argument but I will just point out one.
Drivers in PTC do not yield to pedestrians as a general rule, they will not yield to golf carts. Anyone who doesn’t stop when crossing a roadway, thinking the cars will yield to them, is either an idiot or a fool.
Or someone who is looking to cash in on a million dollar lawsuit – lot of thick check books driving around PTC.
The reason many PTC drivers are now not yielding to pedestrians in crosswalks is because most PTC walkers are not traveling by foot; they are exercising. The number of exercising walkers have considerably increased over the years. That’s not to say the walkers are bad. I personally walk as often as possible, but am also cautious when crossing our roads. I’m actually getting annoyed when drivers stop for me. I don’t expect the world to stop for me when I’m exercising.
It doesn’t matter if they’re exercising or not, here is the GA code.
(a) The driver of a vehicle shall stop and remain stopped to allow a pedestrian to cross the roadway within a crosswalk when the pedestrian is upon the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling, or when the pedestrian is approaching and is within one lane of the half of the roadway on which the vehicle is traveling or onto which it is turning. For the purposes of this subsection, “half of the roadway” means all traffic lanes carrying traffic in one direction of travel.
In other words, it’s illegal for drivers to squeeze by, drive around or cut off a pedestrian in a crosswalk, even if there’s room. Forget yield. Remember STOP.
(b) No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impractical for the driver to yield.
(c) Subsection (a) of this Code section shall not apply under the conditions stated in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-6-92.
(d) Whenever any vehicle is stopped at a marked crosswalk or at any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway, the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear shall not overtake and pass such stopped vehicle.
Again my argument isn’t that pedestrians should expect all cars to stop and just run out into the road without looking, that’s illegal. But if someone is standing on the shoulder a car is expected to stop for them, so that they can cross safely. Cars stopping is important on the busy roads, where there is not gap in the cars large enough to cross safely.
Of course it doesn’t matter and neither does this discussion. Anytime a vehicle driver negligently damages or injures another or another’s property, the driver maybe cited for failure to maintain control of the vehicle. It’s a judgement call. If a vehicle driver knowingly fails to avoid a collision with a golf cart, the vehicle driver maybe cited, fined, arrested, imprisoned, and possibly executed as determined by law. Common sense, which in a diverse society may not be so common, should prevail. Keep peeling the onion.
I’m confused by what you mean. I think it is relevant because I want to make the laws around carts similar to the state code for pedestrians. I personally think traffic laws should be much harsher on drivers, because 40,000 people die in motor vehicle incidents every year and at least double that are injured. As it currently stands if a car hits a cart and kills the person in the cart, the driver of the car will probably get of scot-free. Just look up the case of Raquel Nelson. Who was arrested for vehicular homicide because her son was hit and killed while they were crossing the street, albeit not in a crosswalk.
I live on the lake and have a cart path behind my home. Each night I watch (and have to hear) the poorly parented kids practice for a career in NASCAR. My two big takeaways are that the #1 problem with the path system is the irresponsibility of its users….and the unwillingness of law enforcement to hold abusers accountable.
As for widening, they have done this by the lake peachtree boat dock and it seems to have no effect on safety. I still see carts, bikes and other wheeled devices weaving around walkers and runners.
A little caution on the path goes a long way! Do unto others…
You have to design with the idea that people are going to irresponsible idiots with no sense of self-preservation. What law can be enforced? To my knowledge there is nothing illegal about driving fast on the paths.
The docks are a special case because unlike the rest of the paths, the path at the docks there is a ton of people there. Either taking kayaks out or just there to enjoy the lake, and path runs between the parking and lake so everyone has to cross the path at some point. Which is why there are speed bumps and I would argue that widening the paths there was a bit of a bad move. Because there are going to lots of pedestrians and traffic, so golf carts are passing lots of people at the same time. In this case it would be better to install some traffic calming. Which can take the form of speed bumps or making the carts take a curved path so they have to slow down a bit. As opposed to on a random section path somewhere else in PTC where on golf cart would be passing one pedestrian at a time and the added width increases the distance between the cart and pedestrian making it safer. I don’t trust others to drive safely, I’ve seen too many idiots on the paths to do that.
I am fundamentally opposed to irresponsible behavior and would oppose taking steps that support such behavior
Further I have been told that there are laws governing noise levels (if Music heard from 100 ft or more a vehicle can be stopped) and many of the loud carts are also reckless.
Show a police presence, make some stops and you will begin to curtail.
Further the city web site sets a max golf cart speed if I remember correctly…but don’t leave out bikes and other such vehicles as many are also showing total lack of concern for safety of others
The speed limit for carts is 20 mph, which most carts are limited to. There is a law for the exhaust noise of carts in the city ordinance, but it does not have a maximum sound level “The exhaust system shall include the piping leading from the flange of the exhaust manifold to and including the muffler and exhaust pipes or include any and all parts specified by the manufacturer.” There is no law against playing a stereo to loud. From the PTC website FAQ “Peachtree City does not have a noise ordinance, but has a nuisance ordinance for residents to address problems such as loud stereos or barking dogs.”
People will go as fast as they can and if that’s dangerous to other users they don’t care. We should design human stupidity out of the equation, make it so the fastest people can go is the fastest that is safe. The speed bumps at the docks are good example they force carts to slow down because there are some many other people there.
We need to make the paths safe for all users; pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers. So far relying on people to drive safe hasn’t worked and I don’t think more policing will fix it either. Because, police give out tickets all the time to car drivers and we still have reckless drivers. I don’t see what’s different about carts that would make people safer drivers.
Seemingly personal irresponsibility is one of the cost drivers of diverse populations. Relatively smaller communities with common interests normally counters personal irresponsibility through social peer pressures. I will like to apply some social pressure on you, Henry. You seem to want to take the ability to grow personal responsibility away from the community.
There will always be teenagers in PTC, and if there’s one thing that can be said about teenagers in general it’s that they are irresponsible especially when in groups. PTC is not a small community and hasn’t been in a long time, there are approximately 35,000 people living in PTC. If PTC was a few hundred social pressure would work because everyone know everyone else. Driving, both carts and cars, will always require personal responsibility as they can be deadly and there’s no way to remove that risk entirely. I would just to have paths that are designed with the fact that everyone can be an idiot sometimes in mind, and not rely on everyone driving perfectly safely all the time.
I submit to you, 35,000 is relatively small. There is diversity, but the population is also relatively stable with limited numbers of people moving in and out of PTC, thus contributing to local experience and knowledge of our community’s best interests. I also believe our statistics for accidents along the multipurpose paths are relatively minor when compared to other safety related data. We can pole vault over ant hills with our concerns over multipurpose path safety; but I think cultural and legal measures are currently in place for us to not make a big deal over multipurpose path safety at this time. If the community experiences a surge in higher population density, then multipurpose path safety will probably become a greater issue. Henry, I think you are trying to make a big issue of a controllable situation. You may want to volunteer for a planning or safety committee appointment.
Henry you are not wrong with saying the cart path system could be improved, nothing is perfect. And yes, the city has used state, federal and SPLOSH funds to expand, maintain and improve the cart path system in the past
To cut funds from one program to use in another generally is nothing more then smoke and mirrors (such as getting rid of public works grass cutting only to bring them back a few years later and having to purchase all new equipment after selling all of the equipment).
In many ways Peachtree City is a victim of its own success, attracting more and more people into the city. The cart path system suffers in many ways the same problems as Highway 54 West, too many people. As the city keeps expanding by “annexing” properties outside the city, systems become overloaded.
This “progress” started probably 20-25 years ago when city council after city council chose to not follow what the original vision was for Peachtree City, with a “better” vision (or greed).
There have been many citizens who have voiced their concerns every time a developer wanted a new subdivision, a variance to reduce the minimum size of a buildable lot, to put in another high density housing unit. Have you ever driven around the city and looked at how many apartment complexes, condo complexes, duplex and attached units there are in this city? If you really looked and counted. you would be shocked.
As far as the spending money issue, the city has proven that that is not an issue. Right now, I am waiting to see how much of a shortfall in revenue there will be for this year ( and probably next) due to COVID19 and where those cuts will come from.
In essence Henry, the cart path system has exceeded its design capacity, Its a shame and its going to get worse with more and more houses being built in the city and them connecting to the cart path system.
I have looked at the zoning map and in my opinion there’s very little duplex and multi-family zoned areas. I don’t like single family home only zoning because I it’s the government dictating what kind of housing can be built. I would prefer it if everywhere in PTC was zoned for single family or duplexes, because duplexes are the prefect balance of retaining that suburban character, but also are more affordable for young families. This plan is going to have to wait a while as right now PTC is in no position to start a major infrastructure overhaul, but hopefully as tax revenue bounces back we can allocate some of that money to path improvements. My main goal right now is to get some of my suggestions codified in the city ordinance so that going forward paths will be built better and we can hold the city to those higher standards.
I hope you fail miserably at more multi family zoning requests…there are other Cities that suit your wants better…
Why should the city dictate what kind of housing can be built? If there’s demand for multi-family or duplexes, let the market respond to demand.
Zoning rules exist for a reason. That said, keep on trolling.
They do, the original zoning laws in Euclid, OH where we get the name euclidean zoning from, were about preventing someone from building a factory in a residential area. I’m not arguing that we should get rid of all zoning as I don’t want a factory to open next to where I live and I don’t think anyone else does either. However we should relax the residential zoning laws to allow other kinds of housing if there is demand. No developer is going to build a duplex unless they are positive that there is someone who will buy it. Also there’s already houses on pretty much every residential lot in PTC, so it’s not as if people are going to tear down their house and replace it with a duplex. It’ll be a slow process as houses get old and need to be replaced some might get replaced with duplexes or something instead of a single family home.
Idiotic nonsense. Housing uniformity adds to residential property value.
That is not true, you could argue that single family homes artificially limit supply and create inflated house prices, but housing uniformity has little if any affect on property value. There have been a number of studies on house prices after multi-family/duplexes were built in the area and they generally agree that they don’t hurt prices and in a few instances house prices increased slightly faster when compared to other nearby areas.
Take and pass a licensed (or better yet, certified) real property appraiser’s’ course and get back with me.
OK. I don’t need to be an appraiser to read studies of house prices. But whatever you say, cause you know *so* much more than I do.
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You know how to google my name, I’m shocked!
Yes Robert there are other associated costs with employees. We do not figure in the cost of an office building when figuring the cost of an office worker, equipment or uniforms for public work employees and so on. Taxes and insurances are paid by employers on all employees, so all things being equal…….. Bottom line is Police have a GROSS pay of around $42,000, which “NETS” much less. You pay your bills with cash, not “other employer provided benefits”.
The point is being missed here and that is the golf cart path system works quite well, is an awesome option of travel that very few places can enjoy. We are creating “fixes” and “changes” that are very costly and maybe not needed with no way to pay for them without robbing Peter to pay Paul. Do we want to go into debt to fix something that has worked for 50 plus years? Do we want to create more of a “BIG” city feel by clearing trees and putting up signs all over the place?
I understand that not all people follow the rules or resect other and maybe that is the real problem. It is up to all of us to follow the rules, to respect each other and maybe, just maybe admit when we don’t do these things.
Peachtree City is a great place to raise a family with the “small” town feel, a safe place where people look out for each other, where most of the people “do the right thing” on a daily basis. And it is up to each of us to keep it that way. We do not need to re-invent the wheel and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars doing it.
And to reduce the size of a Police Department is not the answer. The Peachtree City Police Department has not been at it’s recommended strength for as long as I have lived here, they like many other local Public Safety Departments are in a constant struggle to hire and keep the best qualified people available, after all it is more cost effective to retain employees then to have to constantly hire and train new ones. It also reduces the liabilities on hiring an “unknown”.
As a matter of fact, I would like to take the time to say Thank You to all our Public Safety personal who we take for granted each and every day.
Since even a slight decrease to the police department is seen as a stupid idea. The money need not come from the police budget, there are federal grants for path construction. I don’t know if PTC is already receiving federal funds or if the multi-use paths fit the definition of what those grants are for, my point is just that there are many sources of funding I just figured people would rather have 5 fewer police officers than 5 fewer firemen or worse parks or roads. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel, but we can certainly improve it. What do you think gives PTC it’s small town feel? I say the paths and by improving the safety of the paths more people will use them, directly improving PTC and what makes it unique. There are plenty of people in the comments here that have said that they don’t walk on the paths as much as they would like to because it feels unsafe. Shouldn’t we address these concerns and make PTC the best it can be? Or are you opposed to any and all improvements because the city would have to spend money?
Well Henry, as you say ” It’s not perfect, but close enough” also applies to the cart path system. You also worked way too hard to get the pay for a Patrol Officer as the amount is listed on the City website.
The website lists starting pay as $42,000 and change, much less then your listed pay of $65,000.
The Peachtree City Police Department has had a history of high turnover rate due to the pay, Chief Moon has done a wonderful job in getting raises for her hard working Officers, she has been able to get starting pay up from less then $35,000 just a few short years ago to where it is now.
And by the way, by increasing the width of the golf cart path system, you encourage cars to enter the cart path system, causing an even bigger problem. Yes, CARS do wonder onto the cart path system, even attempting to use the cart path bridge over Highway 54 by City Hall. When the driver was asked what she was doing, she stated ” The road started out wide and the got narrow very fast” ( She was from out of town).
And Henry again, Welcome to Peachtree City.
I think you will find the actual cost of hiring a police officer is much higher than just the salary amount. Health care insurance, liability insurance, retirement contributions by employer, payroll tax, education supplements, training, uniforms, firearms, ammunition and other equipment – all of that probably totals 50% of salary, making the actual cost 150% of salary. So then, Henry was accidentally right about his $65k.
But of course he is very wrong about the absurd scenario of widening the paths to encourage speeding (and accidents and injury and deaths and lawsuits and insurance costs) and somehow the crime rate goes down and we need fewer officers. It is pretty odd, but he may be influenced by the news from Washington and elsewhere where the Green New Deal is actually discussed by lawmakers and protesters think burning urban neighborhoods and businesses will prevent police brutality. Very odd ideas.
I never said crime rate would go down, I said crime rate is affected by dozens of things and the number of police officers is just one small reason why PTC has such a low crime rate. The average income of a city has a big role to play in crime rate, as a city with a bunch of people on the poverty line are much more likely to in a situation where they have to decide between food and rent, and as a result turn to stealing food. Cutting down our police force a bit won’t increase the number of people living on the poverty line in PTC.
I feel like you’re misinterpreting my argument a bit. People are speeding right now, it is unsafe, therefore we should design paths that are safe for all users when golf carts are going 20 mph. My point is that not matter what people are going to drive on the paths as fast as they can, by widening the paths and getting rid of blind corners we can improve the safety of the paths and make everyone feel more comfortable using them. I never said anything about the protests or police brutality.
I sympathize with Henry here to some extent in wanting to improve or enhance a city’s infrastructure. And most would be mildly inclined to agree, if not for the suggestive funding process. And then like a scene from the movie Willard (1971), cries of “tear him up” went out from the Willard Stiles like characters that prowl these boards. Tormented souls, a lot of them, with friends like Ben and Socrates.
I just threw the get the funding from the police in because I knew if I didn’t say where to get the money for this people would ask how I planned to pay for it. Also I knew it would trigger some snowflakes who get very mad anytime defunding the police is mentioned.
Well, thanks for the sucker punch in thinking you were trying to do a service to our community. Spyglass was right (September 14, 2020 at 2:23 pm) when he wrote, “I see some took the bait and ran hard.” I thought you were honestly putting up a proposal, when in reality, you were wasting our time. Thanks again.
The paths need to be improved. My proposal is genuine, it’s just the funding source that I was messing with. I don’t know the ins and outs of the PTC budget and I needed to get funding from somewhere, so why not have some fun with it.
Well Sir, first of all Welcome to Peachtree City, a place of relaxation outside of the big cities, a safe place to raise a family. As a new resident here are a few pointers:
Enjoy the three golf courses, the lakes for relaxing views or recreation, the many recreation areas, the good schools and most of all an option of transportation, the privilege of being able to drive a golf cart in many places in the city.
It is nice to hear about your concerns, as we all would like to be safe. The golf cart paths are to help RELAX, to get out of your car and interact with the community, to SLOW DOWN to See your community. We don’t need to go fast on the golf cart paths, we have the Interstates to thank for that.
It is up to ALL of us to follow the LAWS regulating the use of the golf cart paths.
And thank you for figuring out a way to pay for the things you stated are so “wrong” with the cart path, the only question I have is Where are you getting your numbers from?
You state that YOU can raise $325,000 from cutting 5 Police Department positions, I’m not sure where that number comes from. I can assure you that your numbers are WAY OFF.
Today the average Patrol Officer has been with Peachtree City Police Department for less then 2 years (YES 2 YEARS!) which translates into close to starting pay which would be about $41,000 (with college, less without), which only comes out to $205,000.
If you are upset with the way the cart path system is being used maybe HIRE MORE POLICE so that they have the manpower to enforce the current laws on the cart path system, or if you would like give the current Police Officers who put THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE EVERYDAY a RAISE to the $65,000 a year that you think they make! Oh and the reason that the average time on patrol is only 2 years, LOW PAY!
And again, Welcome to Peachtree City.
I got my numbers from the PTC budget, it lists the police officer pay as a lump sum. I took that number and divided it by the number of officers employed by PTC. It’s not perfect but close enough.
The issue is it’s not illegal to go 20 mph of the paths right now, so there’s nothing the police can do about the people going that fast. Which is why I wrote this article, more policing won’t fix it either. How often does a normal person speed? Even if they get a ticket they’ll still go 5 over pretty much all the time. We need to make the physical paths safer, it’s not an enforcement issue but rather a design issue.
Got to hand it to Henry. At first I thought he was doing parody, then I thought he was actually serious, but now I am thinking he has accomplished something not seen in The Citizen since the emergence of Steve Brown. What? you may ask – ok I’ll tell you. Henry has gotten an incredible amount of responses/attacks/serious debate from an unusually large and varied sampling of readers.
We seem disinterested in crime, tax, increases, politics, deaths, even Covid doesn’t get this much response. The bumbles and fumbles of the school board gets some attention from readers, but still second to the bright shiny object Henry has put into our orbit. Good job Henry – even though your basic premise is way off base.
I think the key to his success as a raiser of conscience is that he has chosen 2 subjects unique to Peachtree City – the multi-purpose paths (and that’s what they actually are – not just cart paths) and the strong positive feelings or pride we have in our police department and other first responders. They are special they deserve our support.
I don’t want to jinx this or give anybody any bad ideas, but I can’t imagine any of the negative actions and feelings toward the police occurring in those cities on TV every night actually happening here. We are very lucky to have the educated, compassionate and professional police force that we do. We are also lucky to have 100 miles of multi-use paths for joggers, walkers, seniors, dog walkers, cyclists and golf cart users of all ages. Pretty nice city we have. Let’s not screw it up with too much tinkering.
Thanks Henry for starting the good discussion.
You’re welcome.
Oh come on Henry next thing you’ll want is a law telling me I have to wear a seat belt in my car. /s
On a serious note, your opinion is not unreasonable and there are certainly a number of different ways we can achieve greater safety on our cart paths. A number of people in the comment section seem to believe this is a non-existent issue. I would propose including some statistics that help reinforce your opinion (golf cart accidents due to speeding, worn paths, negligence etc..)
I would also propose completely ignoring the trolls who only came here to name call or shout nonsense. They don’t deserve to participate in the discussion if they can’t behave like adults.
Excellent, thoughtful article. Some of the comments in response to it….just wow…
The devolution of humanity…
20-25mph? Maybe for electric carts. There’s been an influx of gas golf carts that I thought were originally banned but living next to a busy path has shown me otherwise. Ive seen golfcarts easily going 35-40 mph, flying around corners without caution and pushing bikers and people walking out of the way or else be ran over. Someone needs to figure this out. They’re loud, smell and again kids shouldn’t be gunning gas carts that fast EVER. Sometimes you blink and they’re gone, that’s how fast. I’d love for someone in this “perfect” bubble of city figure that one out as I’m left scratching my head daily where and when we as a city starting allowing that. No one in any circumstance should EVER be going 35 to 40 mph on these paths as you’ve outlined, they’re already dangerous enough. It’s only a matter of time until someone mows down a child, pet, deer, or a jogger. I can’t even wear headphones anymore while jogging bc it’s too dangerous. It’s also great getting shoved off the path into poison ivy by reckless teens and drunks.
Yes, we need to make the paths safer for all users. In an ideal world 20 ft wide paths would be great, 12-14 ft for carts and cyclists and 6-8 ft for pedestrians. Increasing safety and user comfort for all users. No one should be pushed off the paths, this is exactly why we need to overhaul the path design standards.
Henry,
No where in here have you stated how long you have lived in PTC. I’ve been here over 20 years and have used the cart paths all of those years. I can tell you that as the city has grown the city has done the best it can to expand the cart path trail. Most recently expanding down Robinson Road; just so you are aware it took “a few years” for that completion to be done. There are also other future areas the city has long planned for expansion but as with all governments…plans changed. For example currently the decisions to try to cram more apartments and condos into the city limits in the hope of bringing in more money seems shortsighted in that people living in condos and apartments aren’t paying property tax, but I’ll get back to your point…
First eliminating jobs for the sake of infrastructure improvements will not work. You eliminate the police officers jobs to hire other city employees to keep up and make changes to the cart path will not bring in the revenue you think it will. I don’t believe in a “police state” either as you put it but PTC is far from a police state. Fayette County and all its contributing law enforcement agencies have long had a good reputation for their interaction with residents, but, most importantly for solving the crimes we expect them to handle. For someone who has served on the Grand Jury more than once in this county I know the work they do.
Second. Cutting down trees to improve our carbon footprint seems counterintuitive to me. There are trees that stand among those paths that are hundreds of years old and you want to come along and chop them down with your “line of sight” logic. I’m sorry but again even on the roads in our lovely city there are blind spots. Especially when it comes to cart paths where cars are coming around the corner and in some places uphill where it would be difficult to suddenly give the cart the “right of way” because you feel “this is the way it should be.” Crossings on Cameron and McIntosh Trail come immediately to mind, but there are so many more in the subdivisions that I won’t bother to list here.
Third. Creating paths so that the carts can speed at 20 MPH or whatever their top speed is and giving them the “right of way” also will put more walkers and riders at risk. As one of the others replied to you above I have seen enough where aggressive drivers have run bike riders off the path or are carelessly close to those walking the paths as they speed by. Not slowly down. Not letting the pedestrian know either through a honk of a horn or calling out “on your left” as they come up from behind. Older (residents who have been in PTC for awhile) do this all the time without a sign or being told. It’s a just a common courtesy. This is no different as when they honk their horn’s before entering a tunnel or crossing over a bridge. This normal practice has become less and less especially with younger drivers, but they are not the only ones guilty of this behavior.
Finally. Your point that this will somehow fix the 74/54 problem is way off. The majority of that traffic is tied to commuters going or coming from Fayette to Coweta county for work. A trip that cannot take away from the traffic issue by widening or easing the cart paths. That intersection is a problem that no amount of cart or walking or biking trail improvement will fix.
I’m not here to call you names or ridiculous political terms, but I am here to call out the fact that your desire to turn the paths into secondary means of speedy travel through PTC by making it easier to weave your way through on paths is misguided. Especially when the paths themselves were never designed for that purpose to begin with.
You say that cities need to change but change or new doesn’t always equate to better. Los Angeles (as with most large cities) is constantly changing and growing but their issues with traffic and growth go hand in hand. Most of us have moved here to raise families or live away from that kind of traffic; both on the road and on the cart paths. Making the cart paths a two lane secondary way means of getting through the city for the sake of ease isn’t what we need – even if it were to benefit the environment which in the grand scheme of things will not. You must remember not all carts are electric and besides if you want to really improve your “footprint” I would suggest riding a bike instead; from which you’ll learn the issues of the carts driving too fast on the path and the risk they already present.
Responses to your arguments.
1) In general, infrastructure tends to increase economic activity in the area before it reinvests tax money back into the community and is generally a good use of tax payers money. The money need not come from the police budget, it’s just one way I came up with off the cuff and I knew it would trigger some people on here.
2) It wouldn’t be any more difficult for cars to yield for golf carts than it would be for them to yield to pedestrians, as they have to by state law. I think that it would be easier for everyone if at every crossing drivers know they have to yield all the time. On the topic of trees, a mature tree absorbs ~48lb of CO2 a year. Compare that to the amount of CO2 released burning a gallon of gas, ~20lb. Gas golf carts can get anywhere from 20 to 35 mph, which at the high end is better than pretty much all SUVs and trucks and most cars. Electric carts get even better miles per lb of CO2 as power plants are designed to be as efficient as possible as they don’t have to fit in a car or start up quickly. They take advantage of the more efficient rankine cycle, as opposed to the otto cycle used in internal combustion engine.
3) Golf carts are already putting pedestrians and cyclists in danger, which is why we need to redesign the paths. Complaining about the behavior of cart drivers online isn’t going to change their behavior, we either need to reduce the speed limit for carts or design paths that are safe for all users when carts are going 20 mph.
4) You’re right that most trips are either entering or leaving PTC, however there’s the downs-thomson paradox which states that traffic always is as slow as public transit/biking or in the case of PTC golf carts. This is because people tend to use whatever gets them to their destination the fastest/easiest. So by making it nicer to take a cart and avoiding sitting in traffic we can shift a number of intracity off of the roads and reduce the number of cars going through 54/74. Traffic is an exponential function with respect to number of cars means that a small reduction in the number of cars results in a large drop in traffic. Furthermore GADOT has plans to redo the intersection soon, so it’s not a fix the paths or fix the intersection, it’s fix the intersection and maybe fix the paths as well.
The issue in LA is people have no choice but drive which creates massive amounts of traffic. The only way to reduce traffic is to provide alternate forms of transport, as bike lanes and bus lanes can move more people per lane per hour than car lanes. A city growing doesn’t mean that traffic has to get worse if the city leadership takes action.
I already ride my bike to work, which is one of the main reasons I wrote this article because I was tried of dodging dangerous drivers and want the city to take action.
I see some took the bait and ran hard.
Wish there was as much discussion on the school board ramming through a tax hike when they should be sending $ back to all the parents who they have drafted into the teaching business without pay.
At least the Robert Morgan was kind enough to sum up the sad comedic lunacy of Mr Vorosmarti.
I might add: Just because it is a stupid idea to run around a pool with steak knives , doesn’t mean we need a law against it, nor the banning of pools and steak knives.
We shouldn’t leave steak knives out on a table next to a pool. That’s what we’re doing with the paths, it’s stupid to go flat out on the paths but there’s nothing stopping someone from doing it. Maybe we should put the steak knives away, to discourage people from running with them or replace the knives with butter knives to reduce the risk of injury. Same thing with paths, design them to discourage dangerous driving or in a way that reduces the risk of injury.
Oh Henry. Mistake #1 was thinking you could express a cogent idea, post it online, and receive kind, thoughtful feedback. Mistake #2 was thinking that the audience of The Citizen is also kind and thoughtful. Shame on you.
We can take care of both issues at once. Hire more police and fund them by citing Henry for driving too fast, cutting corners, and of course hitting one of those too close trees. Once he slows down he can be more comfortable and his problems are all solved.
Just because a golfcart can do 15 -25 miles per hour does not mean that one must drive 20 miles per hour. This is not hard; your car will do 100, its a good idea not to drive 100 through a town! The point of the multi-use paths is not a high speed alternative to taking your car anywhere, the paths are supposed to be recreational and relaxing. And its not only teens who drive too fast on the trails, too many adults who are supposed to be the example for teens ride the trails on the edge of control. Widen the trails and cut down close trees and all that will hapen is that golfcarts that can go faster will go faster and there will be no improvement in safety for walkers or bikers…likey it would be worse.
As for police, if you are.really concerned about path safety then put more police on the heaviest used trails and start ticketing people for unsafe actions. Once these people, young and older learn that their automobile insurance rates go up due to these golfcart moving violations maybe habits will change. But this means that mommy and daddy don’t go screaming at counsel meetings about their precious child being a victim of those mean police!
Quit looking for a governmemt solution to poor personal decisions. And if someone runs you off the trail or is driving in an unsafe manner, get the number on the cart and report it…or maybe just try to educate them youself but don’t slide into the progressive mindset of government fix it.
The issue is that it’s legal to go 20 mph on all the paths, like I said in my article either make it safe to go that fast or put in place a lower speed limit so that the cops can give people tickets. How often do you go 5 over when driving through town? Even if we lowered the speed limit that wouldn’t stop people from going flat out. There’s an idea in road design called vision zero, which is trying to have 0 people die from car collisions. The foundation of the idea is that people are not expert drivers and make mistakes from time to time, therefore we should design roads that allow for people to make mistakes and recover from them without hurting anyone. Safety should not be a personal responsibility it should be built into the road and path network, because everyone makes dumb decisions from time to time and I would prefer to not have my safety depend on a teenager being responsible.
“Safety should not be a personal responsibility…”. YOU have LOST YOUR DAMN MIND there fella! What altered state of reality and fantasy world are YOU LIVING IN Poindexter?
I’m living in a world where structural safety is a common thing. The cage that prevents you from putting your hand in a fan is a good example, it doesn’t matter how dumb a person is they can’t hurt themselves on the fan. The same should apply to roads, design them to minimize risk. Driving at car at 40 mph is inherently risky and there’s nothing we can do to change that, but we can certainly try to minimize that risk.
This is an interesting concept: Presenting a set of solutions for nonexistent problems.
Truth is stranger than fiction!
The are problems with the paths, I’ve been talking about this for a while and most people I talk to agree that they don’t drive their golf carts because it can be stressful. We need to take action on climate change and golf carts are a great way to reduce our carbon footprint. To get people out of cars and into golf carts, the multi-use paths need to be at the same quality as our roads. People love to complain about potholes on roads, but there are tons of potholes on the paths. We all have stretches of road that we don’t like for one reason or another, it just happens that the stretch of road I don’t like isn’t a road but the path network.
I do not know who this letter WHINER – Henry Vorosmarti – is, how long he has lived in Peachtree City or what deep and dark LIBTARD CAVE he has recently slithered out from to make his absurd ‘pronouncement’. But suffice it to say, as a TWENTY SEVEN YEAR PTC resident and United States Army retiree, it is my considered and informed opinion as a frequent pedestrian path user that the extensive pathways that we enjoy in our beautiful city ARE JUST FINE! I salute the folks in the Public Works Department for the TREMENDOUS, EXCELLENT and SUPERB JOB that they perform to maintain what we have in place in a very good condition. And as far as cutting our police force in order to fund unneeded and unnecessary repairs in order to fix IMAGINARY and DREAMED UP and INVENTED PROBLEMS, there is NO WAY IN HELL that I WILL EVER SUPPORT SUCH AN ABSURD, RECKLESS, RIDICULOUS and IRRESPONSIBLE suggestion or proposal. We have one of the ABSOLUTE BEST and MOST PROFESSIONAL and PROFICIENT Police Departments in the state of Georgia, if not THE ENTIRE COUNTRY! Many moons ago, some very smart and plain talking person said: “If it ain’t broke, then DON’T FIX IT!” Find another USELESS LIBTARD LOSER’S CAUSE to throw your spare time at Mr. Henry Vorosmarti! Or better yet, move somewhere else where RIDICULOUSNESS and ABSURDITY are the approved COIN OF THE REALM. We are NOT in the market for CRAZY down here in Peachtree City!
The path network is broke, we don’t accept blind corners on our roads and we shouldn’t accept them on our paths either. Our police department is good, I never said that they weren’t. I think that our money would be better spent on projects that improve our quality of life than handful more police officers. It’s not like PTC is a hotspot for crime, reducing the number of officers won’t have a noticeable impact on the safety of PTC as police do not prevent crime. There will always be people who break the law and no number of police will prevent that. I don’t want to live in a police state, and the most effective way to make sure we don’t become a police state is to reduce the number of police we have. I hear conservatives talk about the US becoming a police state all the time, but it seems like they are the ones who want to increase police funding and move the US closer to becoming a police state.
Are YOU a ‘CERTIFIED, LIBTARD LUNATIC’ or are you still in training and doing your very best in an effort to become one? Sometimes in life, people like YOU would be much better served to just go stand in a corner and face the wall and just SAY NO MORE! Your original observations and proposed solutions are RUBBISH and yet you continue to try and beat a dead horse to death with your INSANE and RIDICULOUS follow up responses. Perhaps the best solution for you to work yourself out of this GIANT HOLE that you are digging for yourself would be to MOVE to Clayton County, Riverdale, Jonesboro, Atlanta or some where else where the residents HATE their Police Officers! I happen to LOVE OURS and I hold them in the HIGHEST RESPECT that I can possibly muster.
My, my, Henry is actually serious. Fooled me. I was positive it was a clever parody – presenting a solution to a non-existent problem, as STF said. I had him pegged for mid-20’s but an intelligent, mature college graduate, probably an engineer from his previous writings.
But now he’s talking about carbon footprint (talk about a non-existent problem) and wants to create a racetrack for carts instead of keeping what we have. So sad, I thought he had potential as a thinker and planner. No more. Henry, I suggest you leave the island (or bubble) immediately. Houses in Planterra and Centennial sell rather quickly. Maybe because of their long straight cart paths.
BTW Henry, police patrolling the cart paths and elsewhere certainly do prevent crime. Go in sometime and ask Chief Moon about community policing. You will certainly hear some things you don’t know, might even learn something.
Don’t twist my words, I don’t want a racetrack for carts. I want to make the paths safer and more usable, if 20 mph is too fast for the paths ask the city council to lower the speed limit. Otherwise we should design paths for traffic moving at 20 mph. There’s a reason why highways have long sweeping turns and local roads have sharp turns, design speed. Having a sharp turn that is only safe at 40 mph on a highway where people are legally allowed to go 70 mph is a recipe for disaster. Same with paths having turns that are only safe at 10 mph that people can take at 20 mph is dumb, either lower the speed limit or redesign the paths.
Look at the west coast and the Atlantic and tell me that massive wildfires and 5 named storms at the same time is not an effect of climate change. Being an engineer I have looked into the mechanisms of climate change and it all works out. I could walk you through how humans are affecting the climate in great detail, but I think that you wouldn’t listen. Community Policing is not effective.
“Investing in community policing—or policing more broadly—will not change the underlying, structural context that leads to a lack of safety. Nor will it change the laws that criminalize people for being poor and disadvantaged. The solution to public safety lies in troubling the idea that policing equals safety.
The real work lies in developing alternatives to punishment and policing, not nicer cops. ”
from COMMUNITY POLICING IS NOT THE ANSWER by Philip V. McHarris
Hey Crashing Boulder, you appear to be the LUNATIC, why do you choose to lump all liberals with being anti-police? I wouldn’t call all that vote for Trump idiots.
I love the emphasis of all caps I’m your crazy rant while you attempt to make fun of someone who presents their opinion and some possible solutions. Really makes you look reasonable and sane, especially while insulting someone. If you don’t agree with an opinion column how about you close the window and proceed onward with your life before attempting to make yourself feel better by calling someone you don’t even know a “LIBTARD”. I bet you get your news from q anon too 😂. Please go back to the primordial ooze in which you crawled out of and help us all.
Good parody, O’Henry. I love the repetitive use of “I would like” and certainly the defund the police punch line is priceless.
Nothing is funnier than an armchair liberal who has done nothing to help for 50 years nitpicking the details of the actual movers and shakers and worker bees who built this city. It is sort of like somebody who has been a Washington insider for 50 years running for president as an outsider. Absolutely priceless.
I haven’t done anything for the past 50 years, because I wasn’t alive 50 years ago. The point of my article is that the multi-use paths are good, but nothing is without its flaws. I guess you built the city to good enough and decided that any attempts to improve the city are impossible pipe dreams. Cities are always changing as the people who live in them change, just because someone hasn’t been in a city since its founding does not mean that their opinions and observations are any less valid.
Correct Henry. People who are challenged by longevity should not have their ideas automatically declared less valid. Only those who present silly unworkable ideas while showing disrespect for the police should have their opinions squashed.
Why should I show respect to the police as a national institution? The PTC police are fine, but nationally there are a lot of bad cops that have gone unpunished. I don’t think it’s to crazy to ask that the people who uphold the law, actually follow the law themselves.
Henry Vorosmarti: You just keep going from CLUELESS to BAD to WORSE to COMPLETELY ABSURD and RIDICULOUS! You sound like you have a whole lot of growing up and maturing to do before you are ready to step into REAL ADULTHOOD – without the EVER PRESENT, ALL CONTROLLING and DICTATING NANNY STATE to hold your delicate hand and guide your way forward! If YOU are indicative of the kind of LAUGHABLE, BRAINWASHED and DERANGED, PATHETIC ‘LEADERSHIP that is destined to govern this country, may Almighty God have mercy on us all as well as the United States of America.
I think the police and paths are just fine. If advocates for increasing population density are successful, then maybe we will need more police and more paths. If we find veins of gold under our rights-of-way, maybe some lighting will become affordable. Until then, what we have is luxury with our paths and some insatiable appetites.
They are fine, but they can always be improved. We shouldn’t just accept that this is as good as the paths can be and not want to make PTC a better place. I don’t think that paths are a luxury, they are a useful mode of transportation the same as roads. If we improve the Multi-use paths that would encourage more people to use them over driving, spreading traffic between both networks. Reducing traffic at 54/74 because we would have fewer cars on the roads.
Thank you. I’m glad I didn’t come in conflict with myself by stating they were fine. However, I did conflict with myself by saying they were not a luxury and then state they were. Poor choice of words with broad connotations. My intent is to say they are not a luxury as part of our overall ability to get from one point to another and they are a luxury when compared to more important things, like public safety and our Police Department. Thanks again for pointing that out to me.
I suppose there are pitfalls with people adapting parts of texts to differing subjects. Maybe I should write a complete guide as to how to manage the world. Will you care to purchase a copy in advance?
I guess we will have to disagree, yes paths are not necessary but in the face of climate change it is important to get people out of cars. Cars kill 40,000 Americans every year and golf carts are significantly less deadly than cars due to their lower speeds and much better visibility compared to cars. In my opinion we should be moving PTC away from a car centric model of transportation and towards one where golf carts are used for most local trips. The police are important but the low crime rates in PTC are a result of a bunch of factors beyond the number of cops we have.
I would love to read what you think about the world. I have opinions on a lot of things and getting new perspectives on things is always interesting.
Ok, I’ll give it a try.
My view of PTC is mostly yours – fewer cars, more cart use for local trips, cart trips at current speeds (no increase), police enforce speed and other laws on cart path, increased police presence on cart paths for sure. And embrace the village concept, not discard it in favor of some millennial wet dream of a downtown.
My view of the world – global warming or cooling or climate change is minuscule, not man-made or man-caused. Even if it were real, I fail to see why the United States should regulate or close their 50 coal burning generating plants (that’s right – we only have 50) while China, India, Pakistan and one other country have over 5,000 coal burning generating plants and they will do absolutely nothing to regulate or eliminate theirs because they know it will limit their economic output. In other words, I don’t think we should punish ourselves financially for a worldwide problem that doesn’t exist while our competitors do nothing. Of course if we really think it is important, we can go to war, conquer those countries one at a time and shut down their coal burning generating plants and then AFTER all that- shut down ours.
Those countries are working on reducing their coal usage. It’s just that in the US coal for power generation became more expensive than natural gas a few decades ago and we shut down most off are coal plants, because they weren’t as profitable. Coal is also full of heavy metals, natural gas is better because it doesn’t put mercury and lead into the air and the coal ash has to be dealt with there are a few stories of ground water getting polluted with coal ash runoff and giving towns nearby high cancer rates. You might have seen the videos of tap water burning as it comes out from natural gas getting in the ground water from fracking. Renewables don’t suffer from these issues, solar panels are made of some toxic materials but those materials have a recycling value as a result they don’t end up in a landfill like coal ash. We need to decarbonize, but that doesn’t mean that oil towns have share the same fate as coal towns. We can invest in wind power out on the great plains, windmills need people to build and maintain them. Transitioning the economy away from fossil fuels won’t be completely painless but it doesn’t mean that we can’t stay competitive in the global economy.